Yes, yes, those evil French, Chinese and Russians were bought by … what, exactly? Do you honestly think that the amounts involved could seriously determine any of those three countries’ foreign policy to the extent that they would support a dangerous country getting WMDs?
Good grief, you’d think America is the only country where big money are involved in politics. Sure, there is corruption elsewhere - but to suggest that three powers were bought by Iraqi “vouchers” borders on tinfoil hat territory. The freaking French went to the UN, and said the evidence was not sufficent to prove Iraq was developing WMDs as alleged - and sure enough, no WMDs were found when Bush jumped the gun and decided not to wait for further inspections when Saddam was backed to the wall and ready to appease.
That’s a fact, at least as important than Iraq embezzling funds from the oil-for-food program. Of course Powell, Bush and co couldn’t have had their own less-than-pristine agenda, could they? It HAS to be someone else’s fault..
Church, please read what I write and reply to that, not to some words you put there. “…but to suggest that three powers were bought by Iraqi “vouchers” borders on tinfoil hat territory” - that is what I wrote, and I stand for it.
I do not dispute that some people and organizations received, essentially, money, Church. I DO dispute that this, and this alone, is responsible for the complete policy on Iraq of France, Russia and China, among others. Was there a complete change in these countries’ policy on Iraq after the “allocations”?
Yes, these countries had interests in Iraq, and certain organizations acted as a pseudo-lobby, but it was not exclusive to these countries - this existed in some countries that joined the US against Iraq, and I’d say in the US itself. Likewise, there were probably lobbies pushing in the other direction, advising for tougher stance on Iraq. Basically, you implied that Iraq bought the foreign policy of three major countries. It just might be that the countries themselves didn’t believe that the Iraqi threat described by the US was real or urgent enough.
Ritter and PItt put together a little book in 2002 that summarized the data that proved true, stating clearly the falsification of information by Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld and it was all freely available data- only the pro-war “secret” data proved false in its entirety.
It didn’t take 20/20 hindsight- just a country to open its collective eyes.
If the United Nations once admits that international dispute can be settled by using force, then we will have destroyed the very foundation of the organization, and our best hope of establishing a real world order. That would be a disaster for us all …
[It] “would be untrue to the standards of the high office to which you have chosen me if I were to lend the influence of the United States to the proposition that a nation which invades another should be permitted to exact conditions for withdrawal …”
“If it [the United Nations Security Council] does nothing, if it accepts the ignoring of its repeated resolutions calling for the withdrawal of the invading forces, then it will have admitted failure. That failure would be a blow to the authority and influence of the United Nations in the world and to the hopes which humanity has placed in the United Nations as the means of achieving peace with justice.”
March 2003: The United States government itself contravened the charter of the United Nations, aggressively invading a country that had not attacked it and against the will of the UN.— Iraq.
“And I don’t know how you can dismiss 45% of $60 Billion going to France and Russia. So be it.”
Do you actually believe that bit? Because those figures seem wildly implausible, and I would have to ask you what you base them on. $65-ish billion was the TOTAL amount of funds the Iraqi oil was sold for in the OFF Programs.The total amount used to purchase foodstuffs and other materials (as over a third went to pay for administration of OFP and the weapons inspection and reparations to Kuwait) was around 40 billion. . Are you honestly thinking that Iraq gave roughly 45 cents of every dollar their old was sold for to France and Russia, even those they basically gave up? Prove it - nothing I’ve seen so far points to such an amount being given to them.
The closest I have come across in terms of pure revenue given to a state is that Russia received vouchers for 1.3 billion, of which the revenue would be 10-30% depending on oil prices - and it received much more vouchers than anyone else combined. No small amount, sure, but not nearly what you said. The total amount of the voucher revenues, in general, is esteemed at under a billion.
On the larger scale, the Volcker report assumed the total value of the oil purchased by Russian and French companies for the entire period was around 10 billion USD (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52682-2004Oct21.html); we can assume a certain (handy) revenue from there, although it would be decreased by the various kickbacks made to the regime. Let’s assume all of this is correct - heck, I’ve seen some articles that give the Russians another 10-ish billions of oil bought, then resold, say for a profit of another few billions. So where do the other tens of billions you talk of come from, then?
WarBush over 13 years ago
But at least we got rid of a dictator at the expense of millions of lives.
<======Mission Accomplished!
pirate227 over 13 years ago
Now, the real killing can begin…
lalas over 13 years ago
Why did Saddam have to go when he was a perfectly good murderous psychopathic puppet in the 80s?
What about all the other murderous psychopathic puppets elsewhere in the world? I could list dozens of countries….
Prof_Bleen over 13 years ago
Yep, because waging aggressive war under false pretenses is the accepted method of peacekeeping.
As an aside, using the term “Libs” makes you automatically forfeit all your credibility.
lalas over 13 years ago
Get a globe Puppy – North Korea, Venezuela and Saudi Arabia for starters.
myming over 13 years ago
let’s make war illegal. thnx, DTROUTMA…
WarBush over 13 years ago
War is legalized murder.
Dtroutma over 13 years ago
Waging peace requires both more courage, and more intelligence. If you think it can’t work, think Ghandi.
4uk4ata over 13 years ago
Yes, yes, those evil French, Chinese and Russians were bought by … what, exactly? Do you honestly think that the amounts involved could seriously determine any of those three countries’ foreign policy to the extent that they would support a dangerous country getting WMDs?
Good grief, you’d think America is the only country where big money are involved in politics. Sure, there is corruption elsewhere - but to suggest that three powers were bought by Iraqi “vouchers” borders on tinfoil hat territory. The freaking French went to the UN, and said the evidence was not sufficent to prove Iraq was developing WMDs as alleged - and sure enough, no WMDs were found when Bush jumped the gun and decided not to wait for further inspections when Saddam was backed to the wall and ready to appease.
That’s a fact, at least as important than Iraq embezzling funds from the oil-for-food program. Of course Powell, Bush and co couldn’t have had their own less-than-pristine agenda, could they? It HAS to be someone else’s fault..
4uk4ata over 13 years ago
Church, please read what I write and reply to that, not to some words you put there. “…but to suggest that three powers were bought by Iraqi “vouchers” borders on tinfoil hat territory” - that is what I wrote, and I stand for it.
I do not dispute that some people and organizations received, essentially, money, Church. I DO dispute that this, and this alone, is responsible for the complete policy on Iraq of France, Russia and China, among others. Was there a complete change in these countries’ policy on Iraq after the “allocations”?
Yes, these countries had interests in Iraq, and certain organizations acted as a pseudo-lobby, but it was not exclusive to these countries - this existed in some countries that joined the US against Iraq, and I’d say in the US itself. Likewise, there were probably lobbies pushing in the other direction, advising for tougher stance on Iraq. Basically, you implied that Iraq bought the foreign policy of three major countries. It just might be that the countries themselves didn’t believe that the Iraqi threat described by the US was real or urgent enough.
Dtroutma over 13 years ago
Ritter and PItt put together a little book in 2002 that summarized the data that proved true, stating clearly the falsification of information by Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld and it was all freely available data- only the pro-war “secret” data proved false in its entirety.
It didn’t take 20/20 hindsight- just a country to open its collective eyes.
Imtheotherkind over 13 years ago
If the United Nations once admits that international dispute can be settled by using force, then we will have destroyed the very foundation of the organization, and our best hope of establishing a real world order. That would be a disaster for us all …
[It] “would be untrue to the standards of the high office to which you have chosen me if I were to lend the influence of the United States to the proposition that a nation which invades another should be permitted to exact conditions for withdrawal …”
“If it [the United Nations Security Council] does nothing, if it accepts the ignoring of its repeated resolutions calling for the withdrawal of the invading forces, then it will have admitted failure. That failure would be a blow to the authority and influence of the United Nations in the world and to the hopes which humanity has placed in the United Nations as the means of achieving peace with justice.”
Dwight Eisenhower February 21, 1957
Imtheotherkind over 13 years ago
March 2003: The United States government itself contravened the charter of the United Nations, aggressively invading a country that had not attacked it and against the will of the UN.— Iraq.
4uk4ata over 13 years ago
“And I don’t know how you can dismiss 45% of $60 Billion going to France and Russia. So be it.”
Do you actually believe that bit? Because those figures seem wildly implausible, and I would have to ask you what you base them on. $65-ish billion was the TOTAL amount of funds the Iraqi oil was sold for in the OFF Programs.The total amount used to purchase foodstuffs and other materials (as over a third went to pay for administration of OFP and the weapons inspection and reparations to Kuwait) was around 40 billion. . Are you honestly thinking that Iraq gave roughly 45 cents of every dollar their old was sold for to France and Russia, even those they basically gave up? Prove it - nothing I’ve seen so far points to such an amount being given to them.
The closest I have come across in terms of pure revenue given to a state is that Russia received vouchers for 1.3 billion, of which the revenue would be 10-30% depending on oil prices - and it received much more vouchers than anyone else combined. No small amount, sure, but not nearly what you said. The total amount of the voucher revenues, in general, is esteemed at under a billion.
On the larger scale, the Volcker report assumed the total value of the oil purchased by Russian and French companies for the entire period was around 10 billion USD (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52682-2004Oct21.html); we can assume a certain (handy) revenue from there, although it would be decreased by the various kickbacks made to the regime. Let’s assume all of this is correct - heck, I’ve seen some articles that give the Russians another 10-ish billions of oil bought, then resold, say for a profit of another few billions. So where do the other tens of billions you talk of come from, then?
CorosiveFrog Premium Member over 13 years ago
4uk; The World needs Oil. Iraq had oil.
Some corruption was bound to happen